Discussion on “The Prisoner of Infinity” 1 & 2

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Comments from Mr. Panda on “Heaven Stormers,” in CAPS, sometimes preceded by quotes from “HS,” in italics, and followed by my responses, in bold.

IT’S WORTH CONSIDERING ALL THE GIFTED ARTISTS AND MUSICIANS WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED SIMILAR LEVELS OF CHILDHOOD TRAUMA. THE BODY REDIRECTS ENERGY AND MATTER WHEN PHYSICALLY WOUNDED, PERHAPS THE SPIRITUAL/CREATIVE SELF DOES THE SAME WHEN EMOTIONALLY WOUNDED.

By spiritual self I read “energy body.” Is that a real polarity or are the two inextricably bound up, so that what is done to one is done to the other?

“Heaven Stormers: “A dancer, painter, or writer may be expressing eros or life force, while someone having sex with a shoe (and almost all pornography) does not.”

PORNOGRAPHY AS A WAY OF TRANSFORMING SEX INTO A MECHANISED FUNCTION, SOMETHING TO DEAL WITH IN THE SAME MANNER AS EATING AND DEFACATING.

Is that a bad thing? Is eating and even defecating purely mechanical or has it also been ‘debased” or reduced in this fashion? Can Eros express through food (or shit?) as well as sexual urges?

HS: De-eroticization, I ventured, would be perceivable not only in trends (such as the New Age movement) but also in individuals. If so, I wondered if it was possible that the sort of sexual trauma which someone like Strieber appears to have undergone might be a requirement to be deemed eligible for seeding the memes of a de-eroticized spirituality? In other words, were sexually traumatized individuals sought (or even created) as spokespeople for the propagation of a mind-based spirituality designed to serve socio-political agendas?

DOES SEXUAL DISTRESS CAUSE THE VICTIM TO YEARN FOR AN ASEXUAL REALM, TO WISH AWAY THE HUMAN SEX DRIVE AND THE TRAUMA IT CAN CAUSE? IF SO, A COMMON BOND WOULD EXIST BETWEEN HUMAN AND POST-HUMAN.  A STEPPING STONE BETWEEN THE WORLDS OF THE SEXUAL HUMAN AND ASEXUAL ALIEN.

Is the Alien archetype inherently asexual? Seems as though these beings are very sexually active – with humans at least, if not each other.

Transhumanism would seem to be a more exact match with how sexual trauma creates an urge towards transcending sexuality and the body?

QUESTIONS: TO WHAT EXTENT DOES OUR CULTURE WELCOME NON-SEXUAL HUMANS? IS THERE A PLACE FOR THEM OUTSIDE OF MONASTRIES AND OTHER SUCH FORMS OF GHETTOISATION?

Depends partly what you mean by “non-sexual.” Capitalist culture would seem to depend on sublimating sexual drives and hijacking them, not in eradicating them altogether. Think of the way advertising works, to give the crudest example.

IS THE NON-SEXUAL OVERLY ASSOCIATED WITH VULCAN-LIKE EMOTIONAL STATES AND MENTAL CONDITIONS?

Yeah I think so. Sex and passion are often used interchangeably, and passion = the most intense emotional state of all. Ironically, or paradoxically, it also equates with the crucifiction, i.e., the image/event of spirit being ‘nailed’ to matter (ostensibly to free humanity from “sin” – i.e., sexual bondage).

IS THIS SEXUAL REPRESSION OF A DIFFERENT NATURE? PERHAPS A REPRESSION OF THE NON-SEXUAL DRIVE? TO WHAT EXTENT IS THIS HARMFUL?

Off the top of my head, I’d say to the extent that it requires force (will) and causes the bodily senses to shut down. Interesting to think of modern medication in this context, as the now almost universally embraced alternative to psychotherapy. Taking drugs to suppress anxiety, etc, is a way to ease the mind, and reduce emotions, by shutting the body down. One common side effect, or so I hear, is the loss of libido. But then of course they have meds for that, too.

TO SOME ASEXUALS, SOMETHING LIKE HIGH SCHOOL EXPOSURE TO THEIR CLASSMATES LIBIDINALLY CHARGED CONVERSATIONS (FEATURING VULGAR SLANG WORDS USED WITH PORNOGRAPHIC ABANDON) WOULD BE SOMETHING AKIN TO A MILD, NON-PHYSICAL BUT PROLONGED SEXUAL ASSAULT, ALL THE MORE DISTRESSING IN THAT IT WOULD NEVER BE CONSCIOUSLY ACKNOWLEDGED AS SUCH BY VICTIM OR PERPETRATOR ALIKE.

I’m not sure about the class of ‘asexual’. While I might fit in that category to some extent (being a very late starter), I view it not as some natural difference but as the result of trauma – the flip side of sexual addiction (which my father and brother exhibited). It’s posible there is a class of human that is naturally less highly-sexed (I believe this relates to neoteny), but if so, wouldn’t it be very hard to identify as separate from traumatized/dissociated humans?

HS: “Deny the divine access to our natural urges, and the devil will gladly take them over.” 

A PROBLEMATIC SENTENCE. SOUNDS LIKE VINTAGE KEPHAS STYLISTICALLY. ON THE OTHER HAND IT SOUNDS LIKE MODIFIED CATHOLIC RHETORIC.

Sometimes it’s necessary to fight fire with fire?

ITS A PROBLEM LOGICALLY IN THE SENSE THAT MANY OF THESE PRACTITIONERS OF SEXUAL DEVILRY, PROBABLY BELIEVE THEIR URGES ARE CONNECTED

Connected to what?

HS: “both the scientific and spiritual quest to “dematerialize/spiritualize matter” (and so merge with it), while it couldn’t be reduced to it, would be concealing an infant drive to be reunited with the mother.”

INTERESTINGLY ITS NEVER A DESIRE FOR REUNION WITH THE FATHERS TESTICLES, FROM WHICH THE INNOCENT SPERM WAS SO CRUELLY EJECTED.

: D That may be too much of a leap for most people.

TESTICLES = THE GARDEN OF EDEN.

SPERM = ADAM & EVE, SIBLINGS WITHOUT SEXUAL CHARACTERISTICS LIVING IN HARMONY.

DESIRE = MEETING THE SERPENT.

EJACULATION = EXILE FROM HEAVEN.

Nice psycho-biological blueprint.

THE IDEA OF SUBLIMATION IS VERY INTERESTING. IF WORKING AWAY FRANTICALLY IS A SUBLIMATION OF THE MECHANICAL/REPETITIVE ASPECT OF THE SEX ACT, WHAT FORM WOULD THE SUBLIMATION OF THE ORGASM TAKE? REVOLUTION? ARMAGEDDON? RAPTURE?

That brings to mind my (sometimes) favorite movie, Taxi Driver, and how Pauline Kael described the blood bath which Travis causes at the end as “the only real orgasm he can have.”

Comments on “An Archetypal Traumatogenic Agency”:

AN ILLUMINATING AND DISTURBING QUOTE [Opening quote from Donald Kalsched]. DOESN’T THIS APPLY GENERALLY THOUGH, LIKE THE EX-GIRLFRIEND WHO, IN THE PROCESS OF IDEALISATION, BECOMES MORE DESIRABLE THAN THEY EVER WERE IN REAL LIFE. THE QUOTE SEEMS TO REFER TO AN INVERSED IDEALISATION.

Not sure if I quite follow the line of logic, but in general, any psychological strategies and subterfuges which the organism adapts in infancy to survive would naturally continue into adult life and become “generalized.”

ATA: “As I worked on this piece, I was reminded of a bunch of notes I’d thrown together, a couple of years previously, after reading Norman O. Brown’s Life Against Death. In it, Brown describes culture as the collective product of repression, negation, and sublimation, making it a kind of external matrix created and maintained by infantile agendas and drives to recover “the lost object”—that of the mother’s body.”

A VERY MALE-CENTRIC POINT OF VIEW. WHAT ABOUT THE MOTHERS DESIRE TO KEEP BABY SAFE AND WARM, FOR THEM TO BE NEEDED IN SUCH A VITAL WAY? WOULDN’T THE EXTERNAL MATRIX BE CREATED TO FULFILL THOSE DESIRES TOO? WOULDN’T THOSE “INFANTILE AGENDAS” BE PLAYING OUT AND ENCOURAGED BY A LARGER AGENDA? A CRITICISM OF CULTURE IN GENERAL WOULD BE ITS RELUCTANCE TO INTERFACE WITH THE CONCEPT OF MATERNAL DESIRE.

Yes, all good points. But the mother was also an infant once, and women can also be imprinted with similar patterns, albeit less severely because they have their own body-wombs to “possess” (tune into)?

JUST AN OBSERVATION, YOUR WRITING STYLE IS MARKEDLY DIFFERENT WHEN DESCRIBING YOUR DREAM. THE WHOLE SECTION SEEMS INCONGRUOUS WITH THE REST OF THE PIECE SO FAR, WITH A PRONOUNCED SHIFT IN FOCUS AND URGENCY. ITS USE OF BREATHLESS, EMOTIVE PHRASES HAS SIMILARITIES WITH STREIBERS WRITING. I CONCED THAT THIS MAY BE ON PURPOSE AS IT DOES BRING AN INTERESTING NEW VOICE INTO PLAY.

It’s mostly deliberate, but also unavoidable, since the dream was recounted twenty years ago and I didn’t want to rewrite the content, but rather cite it as evidence for my state of mind back then. Interesting if it evokes WS’s writing because that serves to underline the affinity I have felt for him, especially back in that time.

I did send him the dream account last year, in fact. He didn’t respond to it.

8 thoughts on “Discussion on “The Prisoner of Infinity” 1 & 2

  1. Out of this delightful discussion of Jasun’s essay, I’ll throw in two cents from what I have read so far in Norman O. Brown on the subject of sublimation. (Life Against Death). I am not a psychoanalyst, but my guess is that the terms “repression” and “sublimation” are related but not exactly equal. However, both would indicate that a basic human energy that is not experienced by an infant in a healthy way, will get pushed down into the unconscious and come out in behavior that we have in everyday life (generalized as you say). Quoting now from Brown and linking individual to society:

    “The link between psychoanalysis and the science of human culture is the concept of sublimation. If psychoanalysis is right, virtually the totality of what anthropologists call culture consists of sublimations. Freud not only regards “higher mental operations, scientific, artistic, ideological activities” as sublimations of sexual energy, but also the less high but more fundamental cultural activity of work. The emotional ties which bind the individual members of a particular culture into a unity, as well as individual and social character structures, are also said to be effects of sublimation. And yet the theory of sublimation is far from clear. This strategic concept reflects all the ambiguities in the relation between psychoanalysis and society. If psychoanalysis is right, we must radically change our attitude toward human culture. The concept of sublimation includes the most outrageous paradoxes, all of them asserting a connection between higher cultural activities and lower bodily regions, between adult “rational” procedures and infantile irrational prototypes, between, “pure” mental constructs and sexuality.”

    So my interpretation of this would be yes, “work” is one form of the sublimation of the pleasure-principle.

    Now…to further this thought of “restless striving”..Brown continues:

    “The relation of the pleasure-principle to the Nirvana-principle suggests that man has a history because the balanced equilibrium between tension and release of tension at the animal level has been disrupted and replaced by a dynamic restless striving. The study of the repetition-compulsion suggests that determined fixation to the repressed past, and thus setting in motion a forward-moving dialectic which is at the same time an effort to recover the past. In that perspective on man’s historicity the crucial psychoanalytical concept concept is the repression of death.”

    So…with our western fear of death, we have removed its natural place in our human bodies, which is to affirm life. “At the human level, the repressed death instinct cannot affirm life by affirming death; life, being repressed, cannot affirm death and therefore must fly from death; death can only affirm itself (and life) by transforming itself into the force which always denies life, the spirit of Goethe’s Mephistopheles.”

    Or..war, I would suggest, or violence against human bodies.

    So..perhaps the sublimation of orgasm (getting back to your question Mr. Panda), can indeed be equated with violence to the point of death of the body. What should be an interlinked human instinct (pleasure/death – one affirming the other), becomes separated in the traumatized infant (and society), and with the separation a new “energy” forms that only affirms itself…death.

    If my interpretation is too far astray or not a good understanding of O. Brown and others..please…point that out!:-) And if this may apply to Strieber’s work also, please, let me know.

  2. That all sounds right to me.

    Fear of death has been quite front and center of my own consciousnesses recently. I have even been dreaming about it. Maybe we train ourselves not to think about it and as that conditioning comes under scrutiny, comes undone, unconscious fears start becoming more conscious? At any event it does seem to be fundamental to my own lack of energy and engagement with life.

  3. PORNOGRAPHY AS A WAY OF TRANSFORMING SEX INTO A MECHANISED FUNCTION, SOMETHING TO DEAL WITH IN THE SAME MANNER AS EATING AND DEFACATING.
    Jasun: Is that a bad thing? Is eating and even defecating purely mechanical or has it also been ‘debased” or reduced in this fashion? Can Eros express through food (or shit?) as well as sexual urges?
    Panda: No, not necessarily a bad thing at all. To an extent Eros can probably be applied to most things. I guess it’s mainly a question of objective and circumstance, there’s no use yearning for haute cuisine if you’re a soldier out in the jungle.
    J: Is the Alien archetype inherently asexual? Seems as though these beings are very sexually active – with humans at least, if not each other.
    P: It all depends on how you regard the term”sexually active”. I’ve been trying to find an accurate term for the sexuality (or non-sexuality) of the archetypal Alien, with no great success. You could label them as sexual energy vampires, but on the other hand there does seem to be an increase of knowledge and awareness in people after the experience, like it’s a sexual energy/knowledge exchange, so it isn’t purely vampirism either. Maybe the visitors have the capacity to interpret the release of sexual energy purely in terms of information and they regard it as the purest and most honest form of communication humans are capable of. They appear to be essentially genderless, further complicating the process of sexual classification and this isn’t even taking inter-breeding or the employment of succubi into account. Seems that assigning them with any label is problematic, I wanted to call them “post-sexual” but that apparently means something different.
    Yes, transhumanism is a more exact match with how sexual trauma creates an urge towards transcending sexuality and the body.
    IS THE NON-SEXUAL OVERLY ASSOCIATED WITH VULCAN-LIKE EMOTIONAL STATES AND MENTAL CONDITIONS?
    J: Yeah I think so. Sex and passion are often used interchangeably, and passion = the most intense emotional state of all. Ironically, or paradoxically, it also equates with the crucifiction, i.e., the image/event of spirit being ‘nailed’ to matter (ostensibly to free humanity from “sin” – i.e., sexual bondage).
    P: I think thats a really interesting parallel with crucifiction. The moment of orgasm is a similar kind of suspension between life/death. The symbol of the cross already has sexual connotations (the venus symbol, XXX etc), so attaching a semi-naked man in a state of surrender onto one almost seems like overkill, symbol-wise. (The Passion of the Christ!) Interesting how the crucifiction seems to be a recurring element in many visitor scenarios, including some of the ones mentioned on recent crucial-fictions podcasts.
    IS THIS SEXUAL REPRESSION OF A DIFFERENT NATURE? PERHAPS A REPRESSION OF THE NON-SEXUAL DRIVE? TO WHAT EXTENT IS THIS HARMFUL?
    J: Off the top of my head, I’d say to the extent that it requires force (will) and causes the bodily senses to shut down. Interesting to think of modern medication in this context, as the now almost universally embraced alternative to psychotherapy. Taking drugs to suppress anxiety, etc, is a way to ease the mind, and reduce emotions, by shutting the body down. One common side effect, or so I hear, is the loss of libido. But then of course they have meds for that, too.
    P: Yeah, there’s no anti-viagra. Culture’s embrace of people like Charlie Sheen shows how much more comfortable it is with libidinal excess, rather than the opposite, (Spock is involved in a passionate relationship with Uhura in the new Star Trek films). A few recent articles I’ve read have hammered home how difficult it is to have asexual or anti-sexual outlook and engage with society/culture. I’m not sure this even involves conscious repression by our culture, (unlike with homosexuality in years past), but its there nonetheless. The sexual orientation (or lack thereof) of cultural bogeymen like The Joker, The Greys etc paint an interesting picture.
    TO SOME ASEXUALS, SOMETHING LIKE HIGH SCHOOL EXPOSURE TO THEIR CLASSMATES LIBIDINALLY CHARGED CONVERSATIONS (FEATURING VULGAR SLANG WORDS USED WITH PORNOGRAPHIC ABANDON) WOULD BE SOMETHING AKIN TO A MILD, NON-PHYSICAL BUT PROLONGED SEXUAL ASSAULT, ALL THE MORE DISTRESSING IN THAT IT WOULD NEVER BE CONSCIOUSLY ACKNOWLEDGED AS SUCH BY VICTIM OR PERPETRATOR ALIKE.
    J: I’m not sure about the class of ‘asexual’. While I might fit in that category to some extent (being a very late starter), I view it not as some natural difference but as the result of trauma – the flip side of sexual addiction (which my father and brother exhibited). It’s posible there is a class of human that is naturally less highly-sexed (I believe this relates to neoteny), but if so, wouldn’t it be very hard to identify as separate from traumatized/dissociated humans?
    P: People get very tribal about their self-definitions and in my view put too much emphasis on sexuality as being an inherently natural/spiritual way of being and give less regard to the idea of sexuality being derived from logic/culture/circumstance etc.
    HS: “Deny the divine access to our natural urges, and the devil will gladly take them over.”
    A PROBLEMATIC SENTENCE. SOUNDS LIKE VINTAGE KEPHAS STYLISTICALLY. ON THE OTHER HAND IT SOUNDS LIKE MODIFIED CATHOLIC RHETORIC.
    Sometimes it’s necessary to fight fire with fire?
    ITS A PROBLEM LOGICALLY IN THE SENSE THAT MANY OF THESE PRACTITIONERS OF SEXUAL DEVILRY, PROBABLY BELIEVE THEIR URGES ARE CONNECTED
    J: Connected to what
    P: Connected to the divine in some form or other. This could be referring to an elevated state via priesthood, celebrity etc
    THE IDEA OF SUBLIMATION IS VERY INTERESTING. IF WORKING AWAY FRANTICALLY IS A SUBLIMATION OF THE MECHANICAL/REPETITIVE ASPECT OF THE SEX ACT, WHAT FORM WOULD THE SUBLIMATION OF THE ORGASM TAKE? REVOLUTION? ARMAGEDDON? RAPTURE?
    J: That brings to mind my (sometimes) favorite movie, Taxi Driver, and how Pauline Kael described the blood bath which Travis causes at the end as “the only real orgasm he can have.”
    P: Interestin, I’ve not heard that before, does that idea realate in some way to the scene where Travis takes his date to a porno theatre. Thinking about it, it’s worrying how many iconic movies feature massacare. Neo only becomes The One after shooting a lobby full of security guards, Luke Skywalker kills a bargeful of Jabba the Hutts pals in Return of the Jedi. All these films feature the hero attaining some kind of moral/spiritual plateau after the massacre/orgasm event. Travis is regarded as a heroic vigilante at the end of Taxi Driver. Depending how you interpret it, Jesus turning up with a sword in revelations could be related to this idea too.

    • Maybe the visitors have the capacity to interpret the release of sexual energy purely in terms of information and they regard it as the purest and most honest form of communication humans are capable of.

      “Communion,” no less. : /

      Seems that assigning them with any label is problematic

      Yep, even the label of “them” (i.e., beings) is one I invariably stumble over.

      The sexual orientation (or lack thereof) of cultural bogeymen like The Joker, The Greys etc paint an interesting picture.

      Blue Velvet’s Frank Booth is an interesting counter-example. Super-sexually-charged, libido on legs, yet unable to “perform” save in an infantile fashion.

      Thinking about it, it’s worrying how many iconic movies feature massacare. Neo only becomes The One after shooting a lobby full of security guards, Luke Skywalker kills a bargeful of Jabba the Hutts pals in Return of the Jedi. All these films feature the hero attaining some kind of moral/spiritual plateau after the massacre/orgasm event.

      The idea of “regeneration through violence” is central to the American “frontier” mythos and it’s been picked up most nakedly by movies. Even Blue Velvet depicts the young hero’s coming of age through slaying the id-monster, Frank.

      Taxi Driver is one of the very few films, IMO, that exposes this myth and shows it in its true colors – that of sexual alienation, isolation, and self-rejection. it was written by Paul Schrader (a Calvinist) during a period (he says) when he was heavily into porn.

  4. “So..perhaps the sublimation of orgasm (getting back to your question Mr. Panda), can indeed be equated with violence to the point of death of the body. What should be an interlinked human instinct (pleasure/death – one affirming the other), becomes separated in the traumatized infant (and society), and with the separation a new “energy” forms that only affirms itself…death.”

    That’s a very interesting and scary idea Debbie. It kind of ties in with the way death is presented in the News as an essentially meaningless, horrifying spectacle. For me, I find I have to balance our cultures dominant view of death with things like psychedelic art and music just to prevent being overwhelmed by the doomy tone of it all.

    Perhaps the extent of sublimation being harmful depends on a persons awareness of it. Eg; From an athletes perspective the process is clear, voluntary celibacy until after the big event, channeling libidinal energy towards a specific purpose. It becomes controlled sublimation.

  5. that’s a blurry line I think – after all who or what is controlling the controller? In other words, we may have all the conscious rationalizations we like for why we choose to sublimate our sexual energy but the question of why we felt compelled to make that choice (ie, to become an athlete who would “need” to practice voluntary celibacy) remains unexamined.

    As I understand and experience (bleh) it, sublimation is a strategy that is learned (i.e., conditioned) early on and is therefore automatic and unconscious.

    This is certainly near the nub or crux of this subject, what with spiritual practices meant to increase life force by suppressing orgasm (or ejaculation) and the Christian symbolism of the mortification of the body as the prerequisite for (spiritual) resurrection. The question of what constitutes violence or self-harm is a very subtle one, I think, but there may be a clue in how traumatized parents mistreat their children under the guise of discipline, and in how victims of abuse tend to become either abusers (violent behavior), substance abusers (self-harm), or sexually promiscuous or dysfunctional – or all of the above. In other words, all attempts to “transcend” the limits of the body may stem from an unconscious rejection of the body (i.e., oneself).

    Sexual intimacy and true spirituality may be so closely interconnected because both depend more than anything else in life on self-exposure, and hence on self-acceptance.

  6. The Frank Booth scene is very disturbing and potent, its easy to project a number of psycho-sexual scenarios onto it. I find it hard to view the character as an actual human being though, seems more like a figure that’s stepped directly out of Lynch’s dreams/nightmares. I’d say both this scene and the film Alien both have strong Anti-Sexual subtexts.

    Taxi Driver is a great film and definitely exposes the hero myth, though taken in that context I don’t know how to interpret the ending where Travis is in hospital and media and Jodie Fosters parents are calling him a hero, it seems tonally at odds with how gritty and cynical the rest of the film is and is played too earnestly to be a sarcastic comment on America embracing violence. Been a while since I saw it last though, might have to give it a re-watch.

    “Sexual intimacy and true spirituality may be so closely interconnected because both depend more than anything else in life on self-exposure, and hence on self-acceptance.”

    Hmm, this would depend on your interpretation of true spirituality, with my cynical hat on, I’d say sexual intimacy and certain levels of spiritual attainment have less to do with self-acceptance and more to do with a willingness to surrender the self to a form of oblivion. Self-acceptance and self-exposure are definitely a factor, but self-annihilation seems to be involved on some level too. I don’t really know what true spirituality consists of, Is it possible someone can accept their own lack of self-acceptance? Maybe that’s a paradox, I dunno.

  7. The ending of Taxi Driver isn’t sarcasm but irony. It’s beautifully done because it shows that to Iris’ parents Travis IS a hero – that his pathology had a positive outcome for someone (her parents at least, though not necessarily Iris), and that good can come out of anything.

    I find Frank to be very human indeed, as played by Hopper anyway.

    Accepting the part of us that can’t accept our self-rejection – that would be the paradox that works, I think, and, more paradoxically still, it could even begin with rejecting the part of us that rejects – ie, turning that energy in on itself.

    I don’t think self-annihilation is part of real spirituality (becoming authentic), I think it goes hand in hand with self-rejection. We don’t need to annihilate anything, even if we could, because Nature takes care of that. Embracing what we really are may be all that’s required – no mean feat when we are curled fetally in on ourselves and contracted into a tight little ball of trauma, keeping the world at bay like our life depends on it.

    Acceptance is the energy of letting go, and yeah, I guess to the traumatized infant, that would FEEL like surrendering the self to oblivion.

    What actually happens is something I guess few of us ever really find out….

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